[Novalug] Firefox versioning

[Bryan J. Smith]

From: Richard Ertel <richard.ertel at gmail.com>
> i agree pickup trucks need engines. and the home user that is "me"
> needs (or rather: strongly desires to have) a package management
> system. i still read it the way i described it.

I'd argue you're asking for the LS3+TR6060 combination in a pick-up
truck.  Some of us want to move stuff that we know that works, not
something that goes bleeding edge fast.

Remember, this "started" when I noted several things, especially a
follow-up where you made the "excuses" comment.  Re-think, please.  ;)

> i expected ubuntu 9.04 to upgrade to firefox 3.5 after reasonable time
> for testing and integration, based on ubuntu's reputation as being
> FAIRLY cutting edge as well as firefox's importance as an application.
> i was disappointed by that. i still use ubuntu.
> i also have no expectation that people should be overloaded with
> notifications. honestly i don't know where you're getting this stuff
> from. i suggested that in this case, where firefox (again, some might
> say its the most important desktop application in ubuntu) doesn't get
> a major update by default, a notification, to users of firefox (not
> everyone), explaining that and providing simple options might not be a
> bad idea. and that's ONE notification, not an overload by any means.

What you say is important, others will argue is important in other ways.
So that's where we get overload, or people pissy because their app wasn't
considered "important enough," and there are now 10,000 ranting users
like yourself about being "disappointed."

Furthermore, what you're asking for is already available in a framework
known as PackageKit.  It integrates with DBUS.  It does all sorts of things,
right there, in the GUI.  Outstanding stuff.  Easy-to-use.  And guess what?
Lots of people absolutely cannot stand it.

> choices go a long way. giving the user an easy choice such as "install
> latest firefox? it might break, yo" would satisfy both complainers.
> might cause some new ones, however, which happens to be my preference.

Again, there would quickly be 10,000 ranting users about being "disappointed"
that they weren't notified about "the most important app" in Ubuntu, where many
disagreed on what that was.

> i don't see how the exception for choices and options in this case
> (the case of firefox, which i again suggest is a BIG DEAL) can't
> appease both home users and enterprises.

So what you want is ...
- Multiple forks of the same package of different versions
- A notification system that doesn't overload people by only reporting
what you consider (i.e., reading your mind) is the most important apps
- Several other things (I've hit many already)

> i want canonical-ubuntu to make the best damn distribution they can,
> and if that is "my way" then so be it.

What you want is irrelevant.  There are so many people that sit back
and "want."  This is community software.  It's about not wanting, but doing.

> i'll choose for myself how much time i donate to the community and how i
> donate it, thank you.

Then don't comment with terms like "excuses."  That's what really made me
question.  Sorry, but re-read your own posts.

> there are many ways to chip in, and just because i chose somewhere else to
> help, doesn't mean i can't have an opinion on another issue.

Then chip in!  What are you waiting for?!  Why not contribute where you "have
a itch to scratch"?  Don't try to say, "oh, well, I'll choose" and then continue on
with the non-sense.

As GDK in Fedora always reminds people, "we care about contributors."
Contributors ... well ... contribute.  There are enough people with a "my way
dammit" attitude.  Why not take it and make it productive?

Again, check out the PackageKit project and what it is trying to accomplish.
It sounds exactly like what you want.  The framework has been fully there, and
it does a lot already (as distributed in the last few Fedora versions) -- including
pop-up notifications, details, etc...  Several other distros are considering it.

E.g., add a simple plug-in to track available Firefox versions, and devise a
way to make it easy to notify people.

> again, if people want to stick with firefox 3.0x in ubuntu 9.04, i
> think it should be easy to do that also.

So back to multiple forks of the same package of different versions.
And then the differences on what should be "the default."

> i am NOT suggesting this is done for every application,

Just "the most important" one, right?  ;)

> it's simply not important for most. but firefox is a big deal.

I could argue at least 20 more packages, let alone 200+ support packages
to those 20 packages.  ;)

> it's a headliner in the free software movement and the application that
> most home users use most often on their systems.

As are at least 20 more packages, let alone 200+ support packages to
those 20 packages.

Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, OpenSuSE, etc... are built on contributors.  As the
sign at the animal shelter says ... "if you don't like what you see here,
volunteer!"

> i hope you aren't suggesting that i started this argument. i stand by
> my original statement (not argument-starter) that one gripe i have
> with ubuntu is that they didn't upgrade the 'firefox' package in 9.04
> to 3.5.x.

Dude, I "sat on the fence" (as I almost always do) on the first correspondence
until you started down that detrimental road, and finally hit the "excuses"
word.  Dude, why did you go there?

> i feel strongly enough to defend my statement of my personal
> preference, but no more than that. i don't feel that i'm bitching
> about it, or part of a mob (a mob of one?).

Over 90% of the Linux community has been a "mob" at times.
What people call "in-fighting" _rarely_ takes place among "contributors."

> just because it is community software doesn't mean that i don't want
> it to be the best it can be.

No, that's _incorrect_.  You want it to "be the best for YOU that it can be."
I honestly tire of people with this, "I'm helping Linux and open source" by
these types of posts.  They are not remotely helpful.  Advocacy is so often
done in the _wrong_ way.

> no distribution i have ever tried is perfect. this is just one part of ubuntu
> that i would prefer be different. not to mention the other issues i have with
> ubuntu, or the issues i have with any other distro.

Then scratch the itch.

> that being said, ubuntu is the best *for me* *right now*. again,
> doesn't mean i'm not allowed to want it to be better.

99% of distros stand on the same code, the same, common packages,
even the same, common codebase in the installer, configuration and
other tools.  I'm at home with most distros.

Again, one thing you're looking for is already available in PackageKit.
You just need to create an add-on for it to get what you want.