[Novalug] Fedora Linux - How to upgrade it - Must use pre-upgrade BEFORE a version upgrade?

[greg pryzby]

On 10/25/2009 07:53 PM, Paul D. Bain wrote:
>
>> Bryan J. Smith wrote:
>>> [ Making an on-list post, or otherwise I'm going to make a dozen-plus
>>> off-list posts. ]
>>>
>>> Fedora does _not_ officially support distro version upgrades via YUM.
>>> I cannot stress this enough.  It is repeated over and over, even in the FAQs.
>>>
>>> It is right there _at_the_top_ of the the very posted link!!!
>>> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/YumUpgradeFaq

Yep... read the docs and it works.

I have had some upgrades go sideways and others not. I have had better 
luck reinstalling after 2-3 major upgrades as there is cruft left.

I have extended that to more by looking at what is installed and 
removing stuff I don't need. Turns out things change and some packages 
are obsoleted, but left on the system.

Read and learn instead of trusting.

Everyone has a separate home directory that is backed up, right?

>>>    "Although upgrades with yum have been tested and work, live
>>>     upgrades
>>> are not recommended by the Fedora Project. If you
>>>     are not prepared to
>>> resolve issues on your own if things break,
>>>     you should probably use the
>>> recommend installation methods
>>>     instead."
>>>
>>> Fedora _officially_ supports distro version upgrades via Anaconda _only_,
>>> and _only_ X to X+1.  That's why "Pre-Upgrade" was created.  YUM is _not_
>>> pre-upgrade.  The Fedora YUM Upgrading FAQ is an _unsupported_
>>> method.
>>>
>>> It's the _very_next_statement_ in the very posted link!!!
>>>
>>>    "The recommended installation method is with a boot media with the
>>>     Anaconda installer as detailed in the Installation Guide. PreUpgrade
>>>     is a slightly different upgrade method where the all packages are
>>>     downloaded before the system is rebooted into the Anaconda installer."
>>>
>>> Anaconda includes YUM and many, many other things.  It is designed
>>> specifically to deprecate and change things that YUM-RPM, or APT-RPM or
>>> SmartPM for that matter, may or may not handle complete.
>>>
>>> Doesn't mean you can't upgrade via YUM.  It also doesn't mean you can't
>>> upgrade X to X+2 (or X+Y where Y>1).  It just means that if you don't use
>>> Anaconda to upgrade anything Fedora-based, and a service, component
>>> or other detail.


With Ubuntu, the recommended method is to upgrade each level so 7->8->9 
and not 7->9.

There is also an upgrade package (update-system ?) that is like the 
pre-upgrade in the way that you should use that instead of apt.

Using the tools specifically made to handle version upgrades is smart. I 
have done it both ways and there is a reason there is a tool.

So don't be a tool and use the tool.

>>> Understand I am a former Debian maintainer on a kernel module.  I _love_
>>> Debian.  I _love_ the Debian Packaging Guidelines.  I love APT so much
>>> that I even used APT-RPM for Red Hat Linux / Fedora dist-upgrades for
>>> many years.
>
> 	Interesting. I would have not guessed this fact based on some of the
> comments that you have made on this mailing list (ML).

I loved apt and still do. I had heard about yum, but never used it until 
recently. I know there are differences, but the experience is similar to 
apt. So, my prior argument of 'rpm sux so I use apt on debian' is now, 
'yum and apt do the same thing for me, so I can use either systems now 
with ease'

>>> I trust apt-get dist-upgrade on Debian more than I do yum upgrade on Fedora.
>>> Of course, Debian != Debian off-shoots, and they don't have the same
>>> packaging guidelines (and I've had clients suffer through apt-get dist-upgrade
>>> on various, non-Debian off-shoots).  Too many people think it's a DPKG v.
>>> RPM detail, when it's more of a guidelines, packaging and repository detail,
>>> and has little to with packaging.
>>>
>>> Anyone who has supported Fedora, especially Fedora 7+ (with the unification
>>> of the build system, repos, etc...) knows this.  It's still not Debian, and YUM isn't

this is what I think is biting me on the kernel, although I was told 
what I did for debian was risky, it worked. I am still trying to get all 
the stuff to work w/ fedora and VMware.

>>> APT -- although APT-RPM has many fans -- it will likely never be.  But to argue,
>>> from a standpoint of total ignorance, that the only way to update Fedora is via
>>> YUM is not the full story.
>>>
>>> With Fedora, you have the Pre-Upgrade option -- Anaconda installed to the
>>> hard drive, only downloading the _minimum_ packages you need for the update.
>>> That's the _official_ way to update and, again, only X+1.  If you do anything else,
>>> you could have issues with one or more services, components, etc...  Typically
>>> I only have 0-2 with YUM, and they are often covered by varoius people, but
>>> Pre-upgrade makes it rather moot.
>>>
>>> Do *NOT* upgrade with anything but Pre-upgrade *UNLESS* you are an expert.
>>> Pre-upgrade exists so you don't have to boot CD/DVD media, you don't have to
>>> have (on the media) or download all of the packages in the special Anaconda
>>> mode.
>
>>> Furthermore, newer RPM v4.6 now has deltas, so it will even do (with a plug-in,
>>> to a supported server, such as a select YUM repo, or a dynamic generating
>>> Spacewalk server) just the deltas of the individual RPM package updates.  It
>>>
>>> Again, it's designed to ...
>>>   - Analyze your system
>>>   - Get just the packages you need (or deltas with RPM v4.6 + supported repo)
>>>   - Install Anaconda to the hard drive
>>>   - Let you boot into Anaconda for the upgrade
>>>
>>> There are many advantages to Anaconda over just YUM.  Please *NEVER*
>>> use anything else *UNLESS* you are an expert.  Pre-upgrade makes this very,
>>> very painless.  It does virtually everything for you.
>
> 	Even more interesting. Let me ensure that I understand your remarks
> correctly. Are you saying that, when my attempt to upgrade a host from
> Fedora 6 to Fedora 7 failed, such failure may have sprung from my
> neglecting to run a "pre-upgrade" before using yum? And are you _also_
> saying that I must install Anaconda in order to run a pre-upgrade?

the problem as I understand it is not reading the docs and using yum 
INSTEAD of pre-upgrade.

> 	If so, that is interesting. I had used Fedora intermittently for years
> (2004 to 2008) and never knew these facts, perhaps because I am a

most likely because like me, you assumed you thought you understood how 
things (should) work and didn't read the docs.

When I upgrade, I read the docs to make sure i did it correct and as 
stated above (a few times), use pre-upgrade.


> DPKG+aptitude "bigot." I know far more about the DPKG distributions than
> I do about the RPM distributions because, in this regard, I am bigoted.
> It is obvious to me that the Debian+Ubuntu way is far superior.

Depends on your criteria I guess. I recently switched to yum from apt 
and will see what happens. so far, I like it.


>>> If you don't know anything about Pre-upgrade, and you are stuck with Fedora
>>> knowledge that is 3, 4 and, God help us ;), 5+ years outta date, please, please
>>> either learn the great number of changes or please reserve yourself so you don't
>>> look dated.  It's a great disservice to use any oversight or hiccup as an opportunity
>>> to market.
>>>
>>> I never do it with Debian, or even Ubuntu for that matter.  In fact many Fedora / Red
>>> Hat "professionals" are renouned for their "knowledge" of Debian/Ubuntu systems
>>> because they understand many cross-Linux implementation concepts. Again, many
>>> of us "professionals" have had countless issues with apt-get dist-upgrade with non-

I am pretty sure dist-upgrade is deprecated (or is it upgrade, I don't 
have a system, but one is deprecated and I am too lazy to look it up)

>>> Debian releases (let alone if you start tapping all sorts of non-Debian repositories).
>>>
>>> I've seen my share of systems completely toasted after apt-get dist-upgrade.
>>> I.e., You _must_ know what you're doing, regardless of distro.
>>>
>>> Sticking noses up in the air and pointing fingers is childish, so don't add to it.
>>> Instead, one should educate themselves and/or consider what it will look like.
>>> If not, then stating things about Fedora that are not true will only lead to people
>>> recognizing your lack of familiarity.
>
> 	Yeah, well, some of us prefer to spend time learning non-Linux things,
> too, you know. I first installed Linux on my home PC in 1997, but Linux
> is not the only thing that I stay abreast of, that is for sure. My Linux
> knowledge represents a __small__ part of my total IT knowledge, which
> includes knowledge relating to, e.g., web administration, network
> administration, software development (e.g., Java, Perl, OOA&D, UML,
> etc.), CMS's, document management systems (DMS's), processing and
> storing email, digital forensic exams, and open source software of all
> types.
>
> 	Furthermore, in the last 3.5 years, I have largely ignored new
> developments in IT, preferring to spend time learning legal technology
> instead. Finally, my Linux-and-IT knowledge is atrophying due to
> non-use. These days, I do not tend any Linux servers other than my own.
>
>>> I know you don't like me Paul because I seemingly "cut" you shortly after I decided
>>> to stop lurking on the list (which I did for the first 6 weeks before coming on).
>
> 	Yeah, you were a bit curt on this occasion:
>
> 	http://calypso.tux.org/pipermail/novalug/2009-September/104743.html
>
> I have since forgiven you, however, due to your considerable and noble
> efforts at helping others on this ML. Truthfully, I was sorry to see you
> leave the ML.
>
>>> But you
>>> keep doing this over and over, instead of pointing people to supported mechanisms.
>>> And that's a result of having _not_ used Fedora, or CentOS for that matter, for a long
>>> time (if ever?).
>>>    http://calypso.tux.org/pipermail/novalug/2009-September/104743.html
>>>
>>> If I wanted to see the same marketing non-sense where users spew such non-sense
>>> instead of helping users, causing them to install and re-install different distros over
>>> and over as "more experienced" (questionable) "fight/marketing" over what distro
>>> they should run, I would go back to the commercial software world.  Let's actually
>>> help people instead of jumping on any opportunity to spew marketing non-sense.

SNIP

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